Curse

Accurax · Nov 03, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

OK, my excuse is being an economics graduate... I can't help finding this shit interesting.

I’ve been in GW for a couple of months now, and as in that time I’ve made some observations of the structure of the economy, for all I know I could have missed some fundamental game mechanic that makes this entire post redundant….. Either way meh lol

I'm writing this mainly in response to so much concern being voiced about new items destabilising the GW economy, and also because I’m a great big no-it-all who likes to have his say

I'd like to start by explaining a little about how the GW economy is currently structured before I start to voice my opinions on how it could be improved. I’m going to keep this as simple as possible. For both my fingers sake and your eyes, and if you feel I’ve missed something (I probably have) or have any other comments, please feel free.

Most of you will probably find this really really dull. Don’t worry, I neither expect anybody to read it all, or expect them to have any positive feedback….. would be nice to be wrong though

This is after all only my personal opinion.

There are three factors that govern the economy in Tyria;

1) The Tradable Items
2) The Gold
3) The Players

These three factors are fundamentally linked, and form the basis for the GW economy as we all know and love it.

Without us, the players there would be no economy whatsoever, we are the driving force.

Players effectively manufacture items. We find Dyes, weapons or crafting materials whilst we quest. We also go out and “farm” for specific items in specific areas. Either way, this is the same as production in the RW, and, as far as I’m aware Anet has not placed any upper cap on the quantity of Charr Hides or Vampiric sword hilts that can exist in the game at any given time. Instead the quantity of each item is controlled by its percentage chance to drop from given monsters in given areas. What this means is that the quantity of a given item that exists in the game at any given time is a direct function of the amount of monsters killed, and can be presented for item X as follows.

Quantity X in game = Function of (Chance of X dropping * Quantity of monsters killed)

And since:

Quantity of monsters killed is directly proportional to the age of the game, it can be said that:

Quantity of X in Game = function of (Chance of X dropping * Age of game)

Basically what this boils down to is that the more you kill the more you find, and as the longer the game goes on for, the more of each item will exist.

So, we have the first element of our GW economic model, an exponentially increasing volume of tradable items.

Gold, the most important commodity in Tyria, everything is valued in it, without gold you would have no measure of worth, even those precious ecto’s are valued in gold, all-be-it 10 or even 12k in places.

Gold is very interesting in the fact that not only is it the “currency” or mode of transfer within Tyria, but also because it is freely available. Gold can be acquired through trading, farming … or even E-bay. No matter how you acquire your gold, fundamentally it comes from the same source, Monsters.

Whether its collecting actual gold that drops on the floor when an unfortunate Charr falls clutching his throat and drops his wallet, or whether its from collecting items that you later convert to gold via a merchant, or another player, it all (except v small amounts) comes from killing beasties.

Now, this clearly means that gold acts in the same way as items. The ammount of gold in the GW world is rising exponentially. It is freely availible.

This causes one major, Uber big, economy Slaying problem

INFLATION

Anet must have realised this could manifest into an economy killing problem whilst creating the game, that would at least explain the cap applied to the maximum amount of gold you can carry on any given Character/ account.

In a static game world where the number of accounts was fixed, the gold cap would indeed be enough to stem inflation, or at least that inflation due to gold.

However, we do not play in a static world (Phew), and there is a constant increase in the number of accounts. There is not even a limit to the amount of gold available to a given individual, as no one is stopping you from purchasing separate accounts.

So;

Amount of Gold in the game is directly proportional to the age of the game, and the number of active accounts.

Gold = Function of (Game Age * Active accounts)

Therefore gold will increase exponentially, until account levels begin to drop.

So what does this all mean?

Basically it means that the price of all items will increase over time, this will be mitigated slightly by the increasing volume of those items, but, not enough I fear.

But surely, if the value of all items is increasing, then there can be no problem?

Well yes, but, no. This would be true if the value of all items were to increase proportionally to each other, this however will not happen. The inflation will only effect those items traded from player to player, not those sold or bought at merchants.

Ask yourself, will you ever pay 500gp for a basic Rin Blade, or 100gp per plank of wood?

I wouldn’t, not when the merchant over the road sells them for 10gp each.

So, those items that are available at merchants, or drop like rabbit babies, will continue to be sold at merchants / salvaged, or will remain fairly stable in price.

However, those items that are not sold at NPC vendors will suffer, this creates a situation where a new player joins the game and starts selling there items for 20 – 100 gp each. But since the minimum price for that perfect axe is inflated to the point where its costs 15+ ecto’s, and ecto’s are valued at 50k + each.

Even so, if you’re an established player, who currently has large quantities of wealth, in today’s terms, then you should find it fairly easy to keep up, and inflation shouldn’t physically bother you that much.

There are however two major game destroying problems:

1) It looks really really silly.
2) It alienates new players.

The fact that extremely inflated prices looks silly may not seem like too much of a problem, but assuming most people are like me, and do there research before deciding which game to buy. Over inflated prices could severely reduce the potential for new players to join, just because it “Looks” unachievable to ever be able to compete with the big boys (and girls).

New players who do join will find themselves separated from the established gaming community by an enormous ravine, they haven’t grown with the inflation, and so have to “catch up”. You end up with a situation like Diablo 2, where all the good items require SoJ’s to buy them, but hardly any players can afford SoJ’s themselves and they drop so infrequently as to be akin to rocking horse shit.

So, what you end up with is a situation where gold gets replaced by some other over inflated commodity which can have its price/value controlled by players.

This gives you the situation where new players strive to accumulate these high value items, but can never acquire enough to breach the “Money Gap”.

So, what happens?

They go to E-bay, or, they go to another game.

The resulting effect is a reducing game population, which eventually results in a dead (or very close to) game.

What gets me is that almost every game out there has this problem in some form or another.

It would be so easy to fix, it would be so easy for game manufacturers to give there economies eternal life, and still be able to constantly throw new items and content into the game.

How?

Well in my opinion the answer lies with the gold, if the programmers can control or regulate the amount of money slopping around in the game. In other words remove the players ability to write bank notes.

Don’t just have cash sinks, have cash loops, where money you spend at NPC’s loops round and re-enters the game some where else.

Maybe (and I know this may not meet with approval) deduct an amount of gold from a player each time they die, then filter it back into the game through drops or quest rewards. Not only would this re-distribute wealth around the player-base, but would also add a touch of risk to any endeavour it applied to.

When a new account is created the total money available in the economy should be increased to avoid Depreciation.

A game economy should function much like a RW economy, it should be allowed its freedom, but it should also be subject to control.

You cannot maintain stability in a system where you apply control to one aspect but not the other. Ie controlling the price’s of crafting materials etc through the use of NPC’s but not controlling the quantity of gold.
Either apply control to both, or, control to neither

Anyway, that’s my 10 cence worth.

Sorry if it was dull / inaccurate / unfounded/ bullshit

I had fun

viet · Nov 03, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

yea it takes awhile for newbs to catch up to seniors. 3+months...
it gives them something to strive for.

theres no other game like GWs.
i wish they went to silver pieces first. silver is valuable right?

& i enjoy farming among my other activities. but bot farming. anet can suspend/ban those accounts & make a profit.

Hakira · Nov 03, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Wall of text'd.

Anyways, from what i saw skimming over it, this is about controlling inflation, either making more gold-sinks availible or decreasing gold's actual value. Either way, I don't see how it would affect new players, other than making matters worse; most runes are cheaper than ever (sorry monks), i frequently find people willing to run to droknars and other places for free, and the average new player does not even know that his weapon sucks, nor will he need a "godly" one for some time.

My .02$.

Yichi · Nov 03, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

What half if not more of the GW population thinks is that if i dont have the best, rarest weapon in the game, im not good. Where as in other games you had to have th best,rarest, most sought after items in the game in order to be competitive. This is not the case in GW. Examples:

1) A max 15% in stance crystaline with 10/10 sundering, +30 health will do the EXACT SAME THING as a max dmg 15% in stance collectors long sword with a 10/8 sundering and a +28 health pommel. whats the difference? about 1 million in gold. The miniscule amounts of percentage differences when it comes to stuff like that honestly isnt that big of a factor.

2) Take the warrior for example. His Gladiators armor from droknars forge will have the same stats and the same function as the 15k gladiators or the FOW gladiators. difference? The fact that you can buy your whole armor and materials to make armor and majr runes for the price of 2 of the 5 pieces of 15k armor or 2 of the ectos that you need for the FOW armor.

3) runes. WHile some runes do make it worth your while to have a superrior rune over a minor or major, some just dont make sense. It is proven that a Major rune of Vigor is only 9 health less than a Sup Vigor. Difference? 9 health and 70k gold. IF you honestly need another 9 points in health to live, youre dead anyway.

But what it mainly boils down to is Looks > function. Astetically they have to have that Max crystaline of uberness and the 15k armors. Yes i have fow armor on my monk, but my wand is a quest item from grenditch courthouse that beats the crap out of the brohns rod and i use a collectors 20/20 healing ank. best combo ive used the whole 500+ hours i have on that char alone. One of the best shields in the game is the collectors 45/-2 stance shield located in the desert. but for some reason everyone wants that godly ugly green/blue eternal shield.

For anyone starting this game, i would tell you that collectors items are the key for you having the godliest weapon without spending a whole lot of money to get one. the 15% enchanted long sword from the desert will do the same thing as your 15% while enchanted fellblade u want, but will cost you a hell of a lot less.

Sorry for the rambling, just my $.02

Xenrath · Nov 03, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

MisstressYichi says it as it is. Inflation is a problem, you don't need to be an economist to understand that (no taxes or government etc to regulate the money supply and players manufacture the cash themselves) - classic example: go stand in Augury's Rock near the exit leading to prophets path, there is an uncontrolled RIVER of w/mo and mo/w streaming out of there and you can bet pretty much 100% of them are going to farm for gold and items. SF is not too different at camp deldrimor. So yeah inflation is just going to get worse as people want more expensive things and thus farm more (vicious circle anyone?)

Yes, it really is all fundamentally "flawed" in the sense you can get the exact same stat weapons and armours for 1000x cheaper. In that sense the newer players aren't at that big a disadvantage, since max damage weapons etc are relatively not too hard to get hold of (and relatively cheap too) if you can settle for a falchion or tribal blade or regular droknar/collector's armour etc. The stats for that 500g-1k weapon may well be close to or identical to that 100k one someone is trying to flog in Lion's Arch. Only difference is the look in most cases or that 1% which for some reason makes a difference of like 50k for something...

Yichi · Nov 03, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

perfect example of this. Sword pommel of fortitude with health +30 sells for 60k. a pommel with +29 health u can get for 15k. 45k for one health is way too much of a price jump for that one extra hp

Shinomori · Nov 03, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Man, that's MY style right there. I go for the Bow grip +24 or something. I can get them for like 400 gold. And 6 health doesn't matter to me - jesus, I play a ranger. If that 6 health ever matters, I'm not doing my job right.

kendaki · Nov 03, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I think it's all about the mental status. Saying you have a perfect sundering, perfect fortitude gold fellblade and 15k armor makes a person feel special. Right up untill the guy with the 15% above 50 long sword he bought in droknars slaughters him with better skills and tactics

MSecorsky · Nov 03, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Here's a simple yet earth=shattering concept that will fix-all, cure all.

Delete gold. Remove it from the game entirely. Go to a pure barter system for trades... things for things. Forget the whole faux economy altogether.

You want the "15K" armor? You need the materials to build it, plus instead of gold you add a percentage of the required materials to compensate the crafter.

Simple, sweet, and so foreign to modern thought that it's likely very few will grasp the concept.

Carinae · Nov 03, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Everyone is missing the point of the OP.

The problem is that when monsters drop gold, that gold isn't being recycled, it's being CREATED.

The amount of gold in the game is directly related to the total number of mosters that have been killed in the game. It's not a fixed amount, and this is a serious problem.

One possible solution would be to introduce a 'tax' for all players, and have the revenue from that tax 'fund' the gold drops from monsters.

BBoy_Manchild · Nov 03, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

none of you work for anet so whining about this stuff is pointless.
but if you guys somehow did cause a change in the games economy, it would throw everything out of wack, and you would be back to whining online. "it feeds apon itself" i think would be an accurate phrase

MSecorsky · Nov 03, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Everyone is missing the point of the OP.

The problem is that when monsters drop gold, that gold isn't being recycled, it's being CREATED.

The amount of gold in the game is directly related to the total number of mosters that have been killed in the game. It's not a fixed amount, and this is a serious problem.

One possible solution would be to introduce a 'tax' for all players, and have the revenue from that tax 'fund' the gold drops from monsters.

And doing away with gold altogether wouldn't fix this?

Hannibel · Nov 03, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

the price of items haven't been going up, with these new green items there's pretty specific prices for them and are actually lowering the prices of items, before sarrow furnace 15% 50> req 8 chaos axe was around 3-4 mil, now it's more like 800-1mil at the most, more people are actually complaining about the sarrow's furnace because of the green items that they came up with, it pretty much broke the economy there is no more inflation in the economy, you can get a req 10 15% 50> longsword for around 40-60k which used to be around 200k before green item and the chests, anet came up with this because they wanted to make the game have these items for everyone to be able to get, but by making these changes it broke down the seperation between new players that have been playing for a month having an item that someone who has played since beta has, anet is digging themselves into a hole, if they would have left farming the same in tyria and had just put in chests in or put in any weapon class to drop in any area it would've made people happier instead of making people leave the game. When they put in green items with the chests it broke down the seperation pretty much between a new player who has been playing for a month and a veteran in the items that they took pride in getting when they got it, anet seems like they're trying to be the stablizers but the only people who wanted it were the people that wanted the items, in which they could have gotten by farming when or they could've asked around how to get money, they're are people that will help you out in the game by giving you information and tips

lyra_song · Nov 03, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I like the idea of gold being removed if you die...but on a more practical level, this really is difficult to achieve.

How about a tax?????

Transactions between players will cost the seller a certain percentage. More expensive items have higher % and generally cheap stuff like common materials have lower %.

How about your cost of items are proportionate to your total gold??

BBoy_Manchild · Nov 03, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

get off the tax idea, it wouldnt work on an onlinegame, it even fails in reallife

Melkor of ZoSo · Nov 04, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I think ANet just needs to stop getting so involved. It's PVE, for God's sake. You're against the environment. What difference would it make if everyone was runnin around with Crystaline Swords and FOW Armor. Make some really hard impossible quest that tests your SKILL, not the time spent farming, to determine what kind of weapons you get. Sure, that sounds like PvP, but that's more competitive tha some people like.

Point being:
Stop trying to make things so right and just make it fun. Give more Ecto drops. Make gold easier to get. et cetera.

MSecorsky · Nov 04, 2005, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Remove gold altogether. Period.

EternalTempest · Nov 04, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBoy_Manchild

get off the tax idea, it wouldnt work on an onlinegame, it even fails in reallife

FFXI Jueno Tax - Worked till about 2 years latter then merchant "towns" out side in the shared zones.

Goonter · Nov 04, 2005, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Or Anet can add a whooole lot of content that players will want that they can buy that cant be drop or shared. ...like how they did with armor.

chaos dragoon · Nov 04, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

One thing i didnt like was the idea that when you die, you lose gold. That is one reason I chose GW. You lose nothing when you die. I didnt like being taxed either and i cant see either of those ideas working. Players would just bypass it buy buying something such as ectos and have no gold what so ever.easily bypasses except to players that dont have enough to buy an ecto. They will be constantly losing money while those with money(ectos) will stay at the same wealth. And since everyone is using ectos it will technically be the new form of "money" and the cycle will repeat.